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I have follow-on questions and / or remarks I could make for all of these, but focusing in particular on the matter of aesthetics for the moment:
Very few of said scholae would argue that the path between beauty and ugliness is a linear scale rather than a fractally branching tree, although some would argue that the various end points all reflect a single law of metabeauty. Of such debates are many academic papers made.(Emphasis added.) This right here is actually more or less what I’m driving at, although instead of calling it “metabeauty” the assertion is that that state is Beauty, in absolute terms, and that what are called “standards of beauty” above are measures of particular perceptions of beauty.
A relatively simple form of the argument runs thus:
Either an Optimally Perfect Object exists (in the sense of “can and must logically exist within the sphere of possibility”) and can be known to be absolutely perfect, or it doesn’t exist (or does exist but can’t be known; effectively, the implication of impossible knowledge would be the same as non-existence, at least in terms of its usefulness for defining the nature of aesthetic value).
If there is an objectively definable Optimally Perfect Object (or, more particularly, an Optimally Perfect State of the Universe defined by the perfect relationship of all of its component parts to each other), then there must necessarily be at least one standard of beauty – call it the Optimally Perfect Standard – that best corresponds to the proportions found in that Object.
Just as particular objects can be measured as more or less perfect in relation to the Optimally Perfect Object, so too can particular standards of beauty themselves be measured as more or less correct in relation to the Optimally Perfect Standard that corresponds to Absolute Beauty.
By implication, just as it is possible to rank particular objects in relation to one another along a “most beautiful to least beautiful” continuum as defined by a particular standard of beauty, it is also possible to so rank the standards of beauty by which these objects are measured along a “most correct to least correct” continuum as defined by their degree of correspondence to the Optimally Perfect Standard.
By further implication, as it is possible for two objects to be ranked differently by two different standards of beauty, it is possible for two objects to be ranked one way by a particular standard of beauty and the entirely opposite way by the Optimally Perfect Standard (i.e. that particular standard must be objectively wrong).All of which is basically an elaborate way of saying that the fact that someone finds something pleasing according to their particular standard of beauty says nothing about whether or not the object is actually beautiful; the standard (and the observer operating under it) can, after all, be entirely wrong, and some are going to be more wrong than others simply by the fact that they correspond more or less to the Optimally Perfect Standard.
Specialist290 <carpentereli@outlook.com> on 2017-09-24 00:17:25 wrote:…I keep forgetting that this system eats bullet points :\
Alistair Young <athanasius.skytower@arkane-systems.net> on 2017-09-30 08:20:43 wrote:All of which is basically an elaborate way of saying that the fact that someone finds something pleasing according to their particular standard of beauty says nothing about whether or not the object is actually beautiful;
I take a moment here to observe that they’d be screaming category error at the thought of using a standard of beauty to measure pleasingness, or indeed a standard of pleasingness to measure beauty. That’s the distinction between objective aelva and ambijective delékith in a well-established nutshell.
Now, when it comes to the hypothetical Optimally Perfectly Beautiful Object, assuming arguendo that there is a single most correct standard of beauty, then -
We can reason that the Optimally Perfectly Beautiful Universe is one which maximizes the instantiation of the Optimally Perfectly Beautiful Object; i.e., one which is wallpapered with them.
But such a universe’s homogeneity would be both remarkably tedious and for that matter ugly in itself.
Which implies that it would not be the Optimally Perfectly Beautiful Universe, and in turn, that the Optimally Perfectly Beautiful Object cannot be such, inasmuch as multiplying it subtracts from net beauty.
By reductio ad impossibilem, then, there cannot be a single most correct standard of beauty.
Specialist290 <carpentereli@outlook.com> on 2017-10-01 13:37:36 wrote:But such a universe’s homogeneity would be both remarkably tedious and for that matter ugly in itself.“Says you.”
Specialist290 <carpentereli@outlook.com> on 2017-10-01 17:44:57 wrote:To elaborate on the above comment:
First, what would make a homogeneous universe inherently “remarkably tedious and… ugly in itself”? The whole argument they’re making is that beauty is a measure of proportions, and thus that if you can “solve for x” properly you can find an objective measure by which you can properly judge everything in the universe. The fact that a particular mind with particular presuppositions would find such a universe tedious and ugly does not make it tedious and ugly.
Second, let’s imagine furthermore that the assertion is not merely that an Optimally Perfectly Universe would be homogeneous, but that the observed heterogeneity in the present universe is part, parcel, and product of the brokenness of the universe – that the original perfect state was indeed, homogeneous, and that the entropic forces of the universe are what has produced its present “imbalanced” state?
(I do have to admit to an ulterior motive in pushing this topic so hard, since it’s rather close to the view of the universe that one of my “focus societies” in my own little worldbuilding project has.)
Alistair Young <athanasius.skytower@arkane-systems.net> on 2017-11-05 13:19:33 wrote:Not to get back into this extensively, but: consider the place entropy occupies in their worldview, and then consider that perfect homogeneity is achieved at an open universe’s point of maximum entropy.
Specialist290 <carpentereli@outlook.com> on 2018-01-13 23:09:10 wrote:As a counterpoint to that:
“The entropy of a perfect crystal at absolute zero is exactly equal to zero.”
Edward Cree <ec429@cantab.net> on 2017-10-01 21:11:35 wrote:By reductio ad impossibilem, then, there cannot be a single most correct standard of beauty.Surely all you’ve proven here is that beauty isn’t extensive? I note, possibly even relevantly, that entropy is only extensive up to an arbitrary function of the number of particles (more generally, of the dimension of the phase space), per Jaynes, and then only really for stuff that’s being treated like a fluid; tiling all of space with the optimal-negentropy-storage-in-a-small-volume does not the optimal-negentropy-storage-in-a-large-volume make. The application to beauty, especially (if I understand it properly) the Eldraic conception thereof, should be straightforward.
Specialist290 <carpentereli@outlook.com> on 2017-10-02 01:54:11 wrote:I really shouldn’t be staying up this late, but since I can’t sleep anyway…
It occurs to me that, even granting that heterogeneity may trump homogeneity and that composing an Optimally Perfect Universe may involve more than just copying an Optimally Perfect Object ad infinitum, that still doesn’t necessarily defeat the possibility of an objective Optimally Perfect Standard of Beauty in and of itself.
After all, it is still possible that, rather than a single homogeneous Optimally Perfect Object, there is still a single Optimally Perfect Structure defined by a precise and narrowly-constrained set of proportions and spatio-temporal relationships between a particular grouping of Circumstantially Perfect Objects – such that too much or too little of a given particular, or one particular being the slightest bit out of place or “circumstantially imperfect,” inherently renders it sub-optimal in exactly the same way that the slightest change in the length of the side or degree of an angle of an equilateral triangle renders it “not-an-equilateral triangle” – yet can still be defined by a specific, enumerable, calculable, and reproducible pattern of arrangement (the Optimally Perfect Standard).
driagledd <driagledd@aim.com> on 2017-10-07 06:16:19 wrote:I have a problem with arguments about “Optimally Perfect Standards of Beauty”, in that they tend not to do a very good job of defining “beauty” before they go trying to work out whether there’s some optimal standard for it (or for that matter adequately defining “optimal”).
One could easily see there could be an “Optimally Perfect Standard of Smallness”, in the sense of the smallest possible form an object may take, but that’s because"smallness" is a well defined property. Beauty does not seem to be well defined, since it doesn’t seem to be “pleasingness”, i.e. something that is pleasing to perceive, or “attractivness” or any other more easily defined property.
It seems a little backwards to try and arguing there’s some optimal standard for something without actually deciding what that thing is. You may as well discuss the existence of an Optimally Perfect Standard of Bloplxufzts.“Pleasingness”, on the other hand, would appear to be scalable up to an Optimal Standard, or several depending on what you take “optimal” to mean. It almost certainly won’t have an example of Absolute Pleasingness “such that any perfectly rational creature with perfect knowledge who encountered an object instantiated with its properties must necessarily recognize that it is perfectly” pleasing, as what counts as pleasing depends completely on the wiring of the brain (or coding of the AI, etc.) of the observer. There would however be optimal standards that produce pleasant responses in the minds of the most beings, or that maximise the integral of the intensity of such responses across all beings. But such standards don’t give much insight into anything beyond the demographics of the universe.
Specialist290 <carpentereli@outlook.com> on 2017-10-07 11:02:16 wrote:I have a problem with arguments about “Optimally Perfect Standards of Beauty”, in that they tend not to do a very good job of defining “beauty” before they go trying to work out whether there’s some optimal standard for it (or for that matter adequately defining “optimal”).Hence the working definition about beauty being a matter of proportional relations – that, at least, is something that can be objectively measured and quantified.
If you (or anyone else monitoring this discussion) are interested in a fuller treatment of the sorts of ideas I’m getting at, a few articles that provide a fuller treatment of the idea:
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Is Beauty Objective?
Mike Stratton, Ohio Freelance Web Developer
Another follow-on comment: One of these days you should do a post explaining valessef, since I see only three references to the word, none of which give a definition (although an inkling of what it is can be gleaned from context).
And if you have, don’t try it without an angel to watch over you.I wonder if the angels have a similar sort of rule, and how enthusiastic they’d be to communicate with something that lives in a black hole and can send signals across the event horizon.
Alistair Young <athanasius.skytower@arkane-systems.net> on 2017-09-25 10:34:01 wrote:Enthusiastic (that is, after all, a very neat trick), but cautious (as is only proper when dealing with weakly godlike superintelligences). Fortunately, as parts of a w.g.s., they have a much better understanding of what it means to be cautious in this context.
Re “Depression and other flaws”: I am rather pleasantly surprised that there would be people willing to go out of their way to help, given how often you’ve mentioned that Imperials have a tendency towards superciliousness towards anyone they perceive as being “broken” in other contexts.
That said, while you’ve answered the what, can I tease out a bit (as I was hoping to) a little more of the why? Specifically:
First, “why should it be important to me” [i.e. the sufferer], as a self-determining individual? If value is subjective to the valuer, how can an individual’s appraisal of their own worth be “wrong” in a meaningful sense?
Second (and this one is the one I’m probably more interested in), “why is it important to you” [i.e. the other party]? After all, they’re clearly not doing this out of a sense of “altruism”; what is their moral justification for intervening?
Jade Nekotenshi <nekotenshi0@gmail.com> on 2017-09-29 13:53:08 wrote:Taking a whack at it, I’ll bet the justification for intervening (or more accurately seeking your consent to intervene) would be primarily be negentropy. It’s good to reduce the overall incidence of brokenness in society.
That’s how I’d read it, leastwise, for what it’s worth.
Alistair Young <athanasius.skytower@arkane-systems.net> on 2017-09-29 18:40:42 wrote:In part, quite so. (More below.)
Alistair Young <athanasius.skytower@arkane-systems.net> on 2017-09-29 18:40:05 wrote:On the zeroth thing: Recall that there’s broken and broken. The degree of sympathy and the extension of a hand tends to be qualified by how much there’s actual dysfunction and how much you’re willing to try anyway.
Someone with real, quantifiable problems who tries to get shit done despite them gets a lot more of those than someone who appears to be making a career of whining about how X did them wrong and someone else should fix their shit, all too often with a side order of digging themselves deeper.
On the first: A subjective measurement can be wrong in exactly the same way that an objective measurement can be wrong; if you’re using a broken yardstick, it ain’t measuring yards. Likewise, the accuracy of your sense of your own (subjective) awesome depends on your brain having a functional introspective awesomestick, because otherwise you aren’t measuring what you think you’re measuring.
Even subjective metrics are only meaningful if they are what you think they are.
On the second: …
…okay, let me flip this out to a larger context for a moment.
Much as I generally dislike trying to interpret other people’s thoughts for 'em, it has been occurring to me that many of your queries on this sort of thing could be answered by addressing one underlying confusion, if it happened to be the case.
Self-determination and obligation aren’t the end of morality.
They’re the beginning.
They’re the crunchy ethical, deontic center at the middle of your delicious morality truffle, which come wrapped in layers of negentropy (via such things as the Five Noble Precepts) and aretaic injunctions, primarily the Nine Excellences: Unity (encompassing integrity and authenticity), Honor (encompassing self-consistent integrity, justice, truth, and clemency), Duty (as very distinct from obedience, and encompassing liberality, generosity, loyalty, and tenacity), Reason (encompassing self-honesty, wisdom, and craft), Courage (encompassing responsibility), Harmony (encompassing beauty, courtesy, kindness, refinement, and the appreciation of excellence), Right Action (encompassing ambition), Liberty, and Dignity (encompassing pride, propriety, and temperance). (Also see relevant section here for additional nuance in some areas.)
And it is to these aretaic outer layers that one is best off looking for motivation, since they concern themselves primarily with SHOULDs, whereas the ethical core concerns itself primarily with MUSTs and MUST NOTs.
Now, to bring it back to this particular example: to watch someone depressed - even a stranger with whom one has no other connection - abuse themselves via incorrectly punitive self-valuation would self-evidently be pro-entropic, unjust, untruthful, ungenerous, and unkind.
Ethically, you need not do anything about it, and are obviously forbidden from doing non-consensual things about it; as a daryteir, a gentlesoph, you most certainly should do what you can.
Specialist290 <carpentereli@outlook.com> on 2017-09-29 19:42:50 wrote:On the first: A subjective measurement can be wrong in exactly the same way that an objective measurement can be wrong; if you’re using a broken yardstick, it ain’t measuring yards. Likewise, the accuracy of your sense of your own (subjective) awesome depends on your brain having a functional introspective awesomestick, because otherwise you aren’t measuring what you think you’re measuring.Even subjective metrics are only meaningful if they are what you think they are.
…All of which ties right back into the “Is there an Optimally Perfect Standard of aesthetics?” debate, I should note.
…okay, let me flip this out to a larger context for a moment...This. This right here is what I’ve been trying to ask for
Re “CASE EPOCH SHATTER BRAAAAAINS”: I supposed I should have also made “And what are they doing about it / who are they particularly keeping an eye on, just in case?” a little more explicit…
Alistair Young <athanasius.skytower@arkane-systems.net> on 2017-09-29 19:58:42 wrote:Genius-level physicists with deep psychological problems?
Which Earth fictions and games will eldrae like the most?
How the Empire will react if they encounter with Lorgar’s Betrayal: An Alternate Heresy version of Imperium?
I bet you will like Imperium of this particular AH, especially the Raven Guard, Luna Wolves, Emperor’s Children, Thousand Sons and Blood Angels.