# Ia! Ia! Shub-Memerath! **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [November 14, 2024, 5:30am UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/ia-ia-shub-memerath/3077 "2024-11-14T05:30:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 3\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![avatar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/eldraeverse.discourse.group/avatar/32/2_2.png) [@avatar](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/u/avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2024, 5:30am UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/ia-ia-shub-memerath/3077/1 "2024-11-14T05:30:31Z")
_(The kind that’s made of ideas, not the kind that outgrabes…)_ So, Mark Atwood sent me a link to this: > [Who worships an evil god?](https://exploringegregores.wordpress.com/who-worships-an-evil-god-2/?ref=eldraeverse.com) > > Someone has realized that the lovecraftian gods are effective as myth because they are basically the eikones of the human species, hiding in plain sight. > > For your attention… This is, indeed, very relevant to my interests, and to yours – assuming that you are interested in how the eikones, being entities of the conceptual realm, worked _before_ being reified into weakly godlike superintelligences running on moon-sized world-brains. (And to a large extent still work, of course, since it’s not as if they got any less terrifyingly pure-conceptual in the process.) As I’ve quoted before: > A god — a real god — is a verb. Not some old man with magic powers. It’s a force. It warps reality just by being there. It doesn’t have to want to. It doesn’t have to think about it. It just does. It’s not hard to see the commonalities with – well, to quote the introductory post: > Sometimes people in the rationalist community write about [egregores](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egregore?ref=eldraeverse.com). [Scott has written about Moloch](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/?ref=eldraeverse.com). [Sarah Constantin wrote a great one about Ra](https://srconstantin.wordpress.com/2016/10/20/ra/?ref=eldraeverse.com). That’s more about the results of processes than something individuals would worship (like the Invisible Hand), but the feeling of them seemed very right. They were terrible and inhuman, a drive given form that we could never really comprehend. > > Moloch and Ra sound a lot like what happens when you read too much of a book, and are wholly given over to some greater Thing, that has no concern for normal, boring, human life. So: what if the whole suite of gods in the Mythos were egregores like that? …gods as, to steal some particularly lovely _Destiny_ flavor text, ideas that will eat your thoughts and leave you full of Light. (This is of course also particularly relevant inasmuch as – well, to quote one of the posts, _‘being intellectually consistent and “taking ideas seriously” is actually going to make you sound bizarrely different from reasonable people’_, and the Empire is, among other things, a culture that [prizes intellectual consistency and taking ideas seriously](https://eldraeverse.com/2017/01/16/worldbuilding-intellectual-integrity-and-non-utopia/), which as long-term readers will have noticed changes things quite a lot. And certainly makes things bizarrely different from **\*here\*** ‘s culture, in which _ideologue_ is the go-to dismissal aimed at anyone who doesn’t instantly cave on their principles at the first sign of difficulty or someone being upset. The reverse cultural effect, incidentally, is why “pragmatism”, in Imperial culture, has acquired notable overtones of “hold onto your purse, watch your back, and get their money in advance”. Sophs without principles are not to be trusted, ’cause they’ll default on you as soon as it’s, heh, _practical –_ so if you have to deal with them, it’s time for you to apply the principle of [_cuius testiculos habes_](http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Latatian_Phrases?ref=eldraeverse.com). […actually, I’m going to wander a bit more off-topic, and [cite this](http://rebelhumanist.blogspot.com/2017/02/reasonable-people.html?ref=eldraeverse.com): > What is fascinating to me is the reasonable people. The vast majority who don’t think of themselves as holding any “out there” political opinions, and who look down on revolution or extremism as too risky. They just see themselves as holding up the same normal, common sense morality everyone else feels, or should. > > There’s nothing “natural” about their positions though – the “normal” opinion is affected by cultural change as much as any extremist. Which is why the positions of campus feminism in the nineties became the positions of all “decent” upstanding citizens in the modern era. > > The extremists you usually can argue with. As SSC points out, the extremists have no other options. But once “reasonable people” have a moral opinion, they enforce it brutally. They do not want to talk about it, they consider their opinion on formerly controversial issues now a “solved” discussion, closed for debate. And if you’re labeled a dissenter to that, your life is basically over. The reasonable people control all social discourse. > > There may be an inferential gap here. To anyone who hasn’t experienced, it’s hard to express how scary it is when you have an opinion you think is acceptable, and everyone insists it’s just not allowed to be discussed. When people you respect are blithely ignoring their most fundamental principles because “this is the way everyone does it now” and with no further explanation. > > Extremists at least usually feel they have to justify themselves. As we [strongly implied back here](https://eldraeverse.com/2017/01/16/worldbuilding-intellectual-integrity-and-non-utopia/), the dominant _Weltanschauung_  **\*there\*** is, shall we say, strongly intolerant of believing in things without understanding why one believes them. **\*Here\*,** the “reasonable people” own the social-intellectual climate. **\*There\*** , they’re the outgroupiest of out-groups, prone to be inquisitioned into surly silence the moment they stick their Just Because/Everyone Agrees out of its hole for an airing. This results in a lot of [_alathkháln_](https://eldraeverse.com/2017/05/09/eldraeic-word-of-the-day-alathkhaln/), for those not accustomed to this sort of climate, and as such is a strong contributor to non-Utopia. But one can’t help but suspect it produces better outcomes.]) Anyway, to return to the topic, these are a series of posts well worth reading on their own. But specifically for _Eldraeverse_ readers, I’m going to suggest some commonalities with various Flamic eikones. (These will probably make a lot more sense after you read the original posts, so I’m going to suggest you may wish to do that and then come back here.) This conception of **_Cthugha_** is virtually omnipresent, of course, in metaphysics and Imperial culture and so forth – too much so to have obvious parallels.But you can see some elements of _Aláthiël_ (eikone of knowledge, wisdom, scholars, literacy, and skill)_,_ Her brother _Atheléä_ (eikone of speech, music and song, poetry, language, logotecture, and memes) and _Esseldár_ (eikone of time, memory, preservation, conservation, tradition, history, and ancestors) in the desire to collect and preserve all knowledge, all ideas, all intellects, all thoughts (the real fundamental true things) for eternity_,_ and of _Dírasán_ (eikone of messengers, communications, and couriers) in the desire for communication as its own end, as well as in that cause. **_Yog-Sothoth_** has commonalities with both _Elmiríën_ (eikone of order, structure, stability, perfection, and proper functioning) and _Kanáralath_ (eikone of philosophy, reason, logic, mathematics, rigorous thought, and truth); the former as a representation of all those little details, all the exquisite clockwork that permits the universe to exist and function at all, and the latter as the promise that “for all the mysteries of the universe, _they can be known_“. That promise of knowability, of the effability of all things, is a major part of the symbolism of Kanáralath. One can draw lines quickly from this **_Hastur_** to _Braníël_ (eikone of power, drive, ambition, the unconquerable will, defiance of impossible odds, resolve, and endurance) and _Ithával_ (eikone of beauty, glory, pride, achievement, radiance, status, wealth, and the rewards of excellence), just by looking at this quotation: > “Hastur is the god of stories. > > “Hastur is the god of _stories that are more important than reality.”_ But where the twist comes in in Eldraeverse metaphysics is that that includes – that’s another way of saying – that he/they is the god of _paracausality_, of that inflection point between universe-as-information-system and the nondeterministic mathematics of free will which makes miracles possible in those exquisite moments when will defeats law, and sufficient awesomeness – sufficient _meaningfulness_ imposed on the universe by _qalasír_ – makes the impossible, at that time and place, inevitable. **_Ithaqua_** has parallels with those two which would seem instantly clear from an eldrae perspective (and much less so from a human perspective, given our hardwiring towards social approval and conformity; but you can never fully emulate _Ithával,_ they would say, as a mere echo of the achievements of others).But the best parallels would be _Elárion_ (eikone of liberty, individuality, self-will, independence, and self-reliance) and _Lódaríön_ (eikone of honor, rigor, self-discipline, purity, and self-perfection), who between them espouse being yourself and pursuing the necessities of your _valxíjir_ and _estxíjir_ just as hard as you possibly can. > “I think what I think and I do what I do for myself, and I will make it _amazing.”_ Yep, that’s about right. **_Cthulhu_** seems nice and obvious at first glance: he’s _Esseld __á__ r_ (eikone of time, memory, preservation, conservation, tradition, history, and ancestors) and _Eslévan_ (eikone of the Empire, the spirit of the Imperial people, set over the race-lords and genii loci). They _are_ all the qualities that define why _we’re_ the Shining People in the Shining City on the Hill, and _you’re_, well, _not_. Where you get divergence of concept is that this particular Shining People’s ideals spend a lot of time pointing out that they didn’t just spring forth fully formed and you have to work at making sure you deserve your high self-opinion, and for that matter actively goes out recruiting. Admittedly with a certain cultural blinder that has difficulty in grasping why anyone might _not_ want to be as all-around awesome as the Clearly Objectively Superior Ones, and yet. (That, and the sleeper isn’t going to rise and force the world to give them their due, because you can’t give people what they already have, belike.) Ah, _ **Nyarlathotep**!_ Now the big N has straightforward parallels in _Ithával_ and _Aláthiël and Braníël,_ _Leiríah_ (eikone of mists, illusions, deceptions, trickery, wit, and intrigue) and _Seléne_ (eikone of the Silver Moon, cats, the cunning mind, tides, and those who travel at night) and _Úlmiríën_ (eikone of rogues, shapeshifters, trickery, epiphanies and unwonted revelations, and sudden paradigm shifts) – all the gods of intelligence and cunning and ambition. He’s hard to pin down to just one parallel, because these qualities are so very esteemed that they show up _everywhere_. > This is not very comforting if you are ambitious. But if you are ambitious, then the response should be: “Good. I’m not a worshipper of Nyarlathotep. I am Nyarlathotep. I am the Doctor. I am the change I want to see in the world, and I am the small group of thoughtful people that can do anything. If I were not, I would not be free, and I would not be smart.” That? That is possibly the most eldraeic quotation I have seen just about anywhere. _Ia! Nyarlathotep!_ Your less-than-humble emulators salute you! **_Azathoth_** is only half-represented in parallels, and that principally by _Kanáralath_ (eikone of philosophy, reason, logic, mathematics, rigorous thought, and truth, if you recall), because _Kanáralath_‘s demand for truth is merciless. _Kanáralath_ is the eikone that insists that you strip away all the comforting lies and face the universe as it is. The one that will tear away the veil of “epistemic humility” and demand that, damn your eyes, you _will look at it and know it for what it is._ It is the god that says “That which can be destroyed by the truth should be,” and means every word, for that which cannot withstand truth doesn’t deserve to exist. _Kanáralath_ [will hurt you](http://eldraeverse.com/2017/05/09/eldraeic-word-of-the-day-alathkhaln/). It will tell you that this is for your own good, and **that** will hurt you, because that, too, is true. Where the representation fails is when it comes to the nihilism of Azathoth. That there is, and can be nothing else, than death, entropy, and meaninglessness? That, they say, is a lie, and an easy one, and the truth shall burn it away. You could easily make a case for both **_Shub-Niggurath_** and  **_Tsathoggua_** as personifications of Entropy, except that in Flamic thought, Entropy doesn’t have a personification; it’s merely a defect, or an absence. At most, like _Exalted_‘s Ebon Dragon, [it’s an itself-shaped hole where it ought to be](http://nobilis.me/quotes:why-the-ebon-dragon-is-evil?ref=eldraeverse.com). [One relevant point to make is why Shub-Niggurath isn’t akin to _Sylithandríël_ (eikone of nature, the forests, set over the seasons and the plant-lords, silviculture, and gardens) or _Gáldabar_ (eikone of wild nature, beasts and the hunt, set over the beast-lords) – namely, that those eikones aren’t eikones of nature _as it is_, but eikones of nature _as it ought be_ without the deforming influence of Entropy; and that conception of ought be demands that nature be as civilized in the first place as civilization managed to become. It’s a garden that’s got no place for ichneumon wasps, and insofar as primality is a thing rather than the absence of a thing, it’s against it. They don’t even like those irrational drives that are not per se bad; irrational mercy and compassion are as alien to the perfected, rational, civilized universe as the other ones. All things that should be done should be done _thoughtfully_.] But to return to the topic, it is almost trivial to cast Tsathoggua as passive (spiritual) entropy – insert that entire quotation from _Thus Spoke Zarathustra_ on the topic of the Last Man here – and Shub-Niggurath as one of the many aspects of active entropy, that which destroys complexity and revels in cacophilia. But they’re both still self-shaped holes, because personifying nihilities gives them too much credit. Commentary and other thoughts are, of course, welcome. * * * This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at [https://eldraeverse.com/2017/08/24/ia-ia-shub-memerath](https://eldraeverse.com/2017/08/24/ia-ia-shub-memerath) ---
**Author:** ![avatar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/eldraeverse.discourse.group/avatar/32/2_2.png) [@avatar](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/u/avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/ia-ia-shub-memerath/3077/2 "2024-12-06T23:56:41Z")
**Comments migrated from WordPress:** > [@Specialist290 \ on 2017-08-24 17:26:45 wrote](#): > > Unfortunately your lead link goes right back to one of your own word-of-the-day posts. > > This post puts me in mind of one I read way back on another blog I follow – by the same guy who did the Paean to SMAC series, incidentally. I’ll have to dig it up when work isn’t trying to kill me. > > > [@Alistair Young \ on 2017-08-24 19:25:58 wrote](#): > > > > Dammit. Fixed. > > > [@Specialist290 \ on 2017-08-27 11:40:15 wrote](#): > > > > Finally dug up the link to that article: “The Great Old Ones: A Discourse on Religion.” [Private Site](https://inquiryintocivilization.wordpress.com/2015/09/16/the-great-old-ones-a-discourse-on-religion/) > [@Mark Atwood \ on 2017-08-24 18:12:08 wrote](#): > > Correct link is [Who worships an evil god? | Exploring Egregores](https://exploringegregores.wordpress.com/who-worships-an-evil-god-2/) > [@Jade Nekotenshi \ on 2017-08-25 09:07:23 wrote](#): > > Oh my, that is very fascinating indeed - both the takes on the Mythos gods as egregores and their Eldraeic parallels. > > The idea that taking ideas seriously and being intellectually consistent makes you seem very weird indeed is a thought that had occurred to me as well - even my own broken, poor attempt at that kind of integrity makes people look at me like I’ve just spontaneously turned into a little purple alicorn! Perhaps there is more to all this than a simple “weird people congregate”… ---
**Author:** ![avatar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/eldraeverse.discourse.group/avatar/32/2_2.png) [@avatar](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/u/avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/ia-ia-shub-memerath/3077/3 "2024-12-06T23:56:41Z")