# In The Grim Darkness of the Contact Form **URL:** \ **Category:** General\ **Created:** [November 15, 2024, 5:08am UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-contact-form/3156 "2024-11-15T05:08:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![avatar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/eldraeverse.discourse.group/avatar/32/2_2.png) [@avatar](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/u/avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2024, 5:08am UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-contact-form/3156/1 "2024-11-15T05:08:08Z")
…there are only questions: > Huge fan of your nanofic and your worldbuilding is superb. Thank you kindly! > That being said, however, I’ve also long been a fan of the less insane parts of the Warhammer 40K universe (in particular the Imperial Guard and Space Marines) for much the same reasons; in my estimation it offers a fairly well thought-out look into the military makeup of a combined-arms force built around the need to combat massed infantry durable enough to reliably close to knife-fighting range. > > In a face-to-face matchup between the Imperial Legions and the Imperium, then, how do you think the dice would fall? Well, now. I’m going to insert a couple of disclaimers up front, here. The first being the more-or-less obligatory one that it’s always hard to compare across universes where the physics and metaphysics are so different. (I’ll be basically ignoring the wackiness of the Warp, for example.) And the second is that I’m not all _that_ familiar with 40K canon – grimdark not being really my thing – so most of what I know about the setting I learned from Ciaphas Cain. Anyway. At the top level, civilization vs. civilization as portrayed at the current place in both their timelines, I’d probably have to give it to the Imperium, simply because of size. It’s a galaxy-spanning regime versus a few hundred worlds, and quantity has a quality of its own. I think, for the below reasons, they’d win over a planet-sized mountain of their own dead, but it’s not like the Imperium has any shortage of commanders who subscribe to the _[We Have Reserves](http://eldraeverse.com/2015/02/04/trope-a-day-we-have-reserves/)_ school of tactics. (Of course, there’s always ADHÁÏC PARASOL and friends to worry about even then, so the Imperium may have some trouble afterwards with the galaxy’s new infestation of self-improving, self-replicating berserker fleets. This is the sort of ‘take everyone with you’ strategy that the Imperials would generally disapprove of, of course, but given the 40K galaxy’s parameters, I suspect they’d see it as civic improvement.) If, though, we adjust things so the conflict in terms of civilization-scale is equal, or even less disproportionate, then the pendulum swings the other way. One can argue some advantages for either side (the Imperium certainly has an initial advantage due to being, well, highly optimized to hatemurderize basically anyone it comes across given the opportunity; the Empire arguably has a technological edge in various areas, such as preferring to expend readily replaceable machines rather than population; etc.), but ultimately, I think it comes down to these two things: - The Imperium has an impressive fighting machine, but it’s a _stuck_ fighting machine. Their technology is stagnant and at best poorly understood even by the Adeptus Mechanicus, their tactics are also terribly by the book except when they get _really_ lucky in choice of commanders, they have a religious proscription against adopting ideas from outside, and anyone who tries to change any of this runs hard into PURGE THE HERETIC. They get away with this because, well, it’s not like anyone else (with the possible exception of the Tau) in their galaxy innovates worth a damn either: the Eldar are stagnant, the Orks rely on genetic knowledge, etc., etc. Meanwhile, the Empire understands exactly how _all_ its stuff works, and innovates, borrows, and steals good ideas from the enemy about as easily as breathing. - And the other one is that the Imperium’s fascist theocracy is a seething mass of factions, many of which appear to hate each other almost as much as they do the xenos, and all of whom are paranoid about hidden mutants and traitors. This is the sort of scenario that the Stratarchy of Warrior Philosophy _adores_, because they specialize in getting into all those little cracks and inflaming the hell out of them until they catch fire and explode. (The Empire’s a lot less susceptible to this sort of thing, and in any case, the Imperium doesn’t go in for it. Even if it tried, it’d probably have to regularly have all its memeticists shot for understanding the xeno outlook.) To sum up – unless the Imperium is smart enough to realize that it had better use all its biggest hammers _right away_, and not telegraph its blows, it’s in _deep _trouble, because it’s fighting people who are scarily adaptive given even half a chance. Or that’s how I’d read it, anyway.   * * * This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at [https://eldraeverse.com/2016/05/12/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-contact-form](https://eldraeverse.com/2016/05/12/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-contact-form) ---
**Author:** ![avatar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/eldraeverse.discourse.group/avatar/32/2_2.png) [@avatar](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/u/avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 7:06pm UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-contact-form/3156/2 "2025-03-21T19:06:35Z")
**Comments migrated from WordPress:** > [@Jade Nekotenshi \ on 2016-05-12 07:33:44 wrote](#): > > Yeah, that’s pretty much what came to mind when I considered that too. > > Also, the Empire is bigger than the Tau Empire, and the Tau have managed to stand up to the Imperium, Orks, Tyranids and occasional raids by the Dark Eldar, Necrons and Chaos. I think the Imperium would rather quickly unofficially decide to leave the Empire the heck alone, with the same kind of armed-neutrality-with-occasional-flareups that they treat the Tau and Eldar with. (The Imperium fights both, but rarely mounts serious campaigns against either one; neither do the Tau or Eldar regularly engage in major offensives against the Imperium.) > > Considering that the Empire’s light infantry are pretty close to Tau Crisis suits with shield generators and stim injectors (from the Tau rules; kinetic barriers and pain-resistant, quick-repairing engineered eldrae bodies in universe), armed with something that maps pretty closely onto the Eldar shuriken cannon, but available in the kind of numbers that Space Marines are, at least, the Imperium would get a little nervous. Front-line infantry that can wreck your APCs through their strongest armor kinda do that 🙂 > > Then again, that’s all headcanon, but it’s surprising to me how closely some things map… > [@Zarpaulus \ on 2016-05-12 11:48:59 wrote](#): > > I wonder if the Imperium would consider Eldrae to be Xenos, mutants, or abhumans. > > > [@Jade Nekotenshi \ on 2016-05-12 14:06:56 wrote](#): > > > > My vote would go to xenos: heck, I doubt anyone other than an Ordo Xenos inquisitor would look long enough to realize that eldrae != eldar. > > > > > [@Alistair Young \ on 2016-05-12 16:35:53 wrote](#): > > > > > > That’d be my thinking. Plus, a certain difficulty in getting close enough to take a good look, given the Military Service’s taste for [self-destruct devices that take 'em with you](https://eldraeverse.com/2015/02/10/trope-a-day-mercy-kill/), or at least would if you didn’t have a backup. > > > > > > “And now, xeno scum, we will torture you for all your secrets!” > > > > > > “Um, yeah, one for you first - 25 micrograms of antimatter implanted an inch inferior to the corpus callosum say what?” > > > > > > “Wha-” > > > > > > > [@Eric Manwill \ on 2016-05-14 14:20:19 wrote](#): > > > > > > > > High-yield self-destruct implants? Kevyn Andreyasn and his antimatter epaulets have found kindred spirits, I think. > > > > > > > > > [@Alistair Young \ on 2016-05-14 19:58:05 wrote](#): > > > > > > > > > > (Not solely self-destruct, technically - the AM is used to power a one-shot emergency bug-out transmitter on its way to full 'splode.) > > > > > > > > > > The milspec version can technically hold up to a full milligram of AM, but there aren’t all that many occasions that warrant three-Hiroshimas of emergency boom. Also, at that level, you’re setting off even fairly crude scintillation detectors. > [@Specialist290 \ on 2016-05-14 22:47:52 wrote](#): > > “…[M]ost of what I know about the setting I learned from Ciaphas Cain.” > > A man after my own heart. > > On a tangential note: Given the comparison that’s already been made between the Empire of the Star and the Tau Empire, I wonder how they would match up: Particularly what the eldrae would think of the theory and practice of the Greater Good. > > (I’m also curious as to what the eldrae would think of the kroot once they faced a group of 'em on the battlefield and learned about the whole “eating the flesh of our enemies to metabolize and adapt their genes” thing.) > > > [@Zarpaulus \ on 2016-05-14 23:13:10 wrote](#): > > > > I suspect the eldrae would figure out a way to hack the Ethereals’ pheromones or something. > > > [@Alistair Young \ on 2016-05-15 13:04:02 wrote](#): > > > > #insert “disclaimer.h” > > > > On the Greater Good: well, to some extent, that’s going to depend on the truth behind the speculation that the Ethereals are controlling everyone else with psionics or pheromones. (Although some aspects of their external policy probably aren’t encouraging.) I mean, depending on how the Greater Good is interpreted – well, it’s not like the _eldrae_ can’t preach a good sermon or several about the joys of harmonious cooperation for the common good of all, perfect societal harmony, etc., etc. It’s the coercivity of it (and to a lesser extent the harsh utilitarianism if interpreted that way) which is the problematic aspect, and makes it uncomfortably close to the “dark mirror of us if we’d totally screwed up on the _necessity of freedom_ part of the philosophy”, in much the same way as the Equality Concord. > > > > That said, they’re still probably the least horribly broken people around, which I’m sure would be cause for much ironic laughter in some circles. As well as putting them right at the bottom of the People Who Need To Be Dealt With list. > > > > (As for the kroot - well, it might start out seeming distinctly morbid and creepifying, eating the dead, but that would be fixed by some cultural learnings. [As I understand it, the kroot custom of eating the dead, their own and others, comes culturally from respect for the warrior spirit of the deceased, which is something they can understand. Necrophagy is certainly an _odd_ death ritual by their standards, but it’s not taboo or anything.] > > > > Where the acquisition of genes is concerned - well, it’s not like eldrae and esseli bioengineers aren’t more than happy to, um, _acquire_ interesting genetic material that they come across, albeit by less direct methods, as do various of the people they find themselves across battlefields from. [That’s another one of the reasons for the above-mentioned self-destruct charges: no-one wants to leave behind enough of a corpse to make it easy for the other side to acquire priceless military biotechnology.] > > > > …now an interesting consideration, if they did happen to come across some un-destruct-charged corpses, would be whether they could pick up the nanocytes that work in tandem with the genes, too… > > > > …actually. Oh, dearie me. The kroot are going to be in a rather awkward position. Namely, that of being a species with an ability the aforementioned bioengineers find _really interesting._) ---
**Author:** ![avatar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/eldraeverse.discourse.group/avatar/32/2_2.png) [@avatar](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/u/avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2025, 7:06pm UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-contact-form/3156/3 "2025-03-21T19:06:36Z")
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**Author:** ![Morgrim](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/eldraeverse.discourse.group/morgrim/32/87_2.png) [@Morgrim](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/u/Morgrim)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2025, 11:34am UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-contact-form/3156/4 "2025-03-22T11:34:39Z")
Admittedly, a lot of kroot are mercenaries, and they really like finding new and useful genetics. “We pay you in exotic cloned flesh, and you’ll enthusiastically cooperate with and assist our bioengineers” seems a very likely outcome once the initial cultural and linguistic issues are sorted out. Given that kroot can read a lot of genetic data by taste, I predict at least one kroot shaper/esseli bioengineer friendship rapidly blooming to Mad Science levels enough for their allies to clear their throats pointedly. Kroot culture does have some issues with empathy for non-kroot and aggression, but sophantologists may conclude a good chunk of that is the environment they’re stuck in. They have a well known sense of honour and when they make a bargain they stick to it, even to the point of killing their own kin for violations. So while they might not be immediate candidates for joining the Empire, they’d at least fit in just fine with the Worlds and honestly their planet of Pech may be one of the few suitable for a satrapy. Introduce them to the kaeth and give the memeticists some time to work and the kroot would likely be off the People Who Need To Be Dealt With list entirely. ---
**Author:** ![zakueins](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/eldraeverse.discourse.group/zakueins/32/65_2.png) [@zakueins](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/u/zakueins)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2025, 3:49am UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-contact-form/3156/5 "2025-03-23T03:49:52Z")
Here’s the thing about the 40K universe that I keep trying to explain to critics. It is _fundamentally fucked up_. Not “oh, we’re dealing in satire/irony” kind of fucked up (which it is, mind you), but “the very superstructure of reality is one bad day away from having a divide-by-zero error and collapsing into nothingness” kind of fucked up. Earliest consistent history of the 40K universe is the War In Heaven. Which happened because the Old Ones were utter **assholes** to the Necrontir, who declared war against a force they could never beat, who later made a devil’s bargain with the Old Ones enemies… …forcing the Old Ones to strain the very firmament of the Warp, and when the War In Heaven was over, the Eldar created gods to Do Things in the Warp and deal with the Three Chaos Powers. Meanwhile, you have humanity at it’s height in the Dark Age of Technology. The only _other_ races with the tech to be considered peers to DAoT humanity were the Eldar at their height, the Old Ones, and _maybe_ the Necrons. When they considered Baneblades and Titans to be _planetary defense weapons_, their warships considered time-distorition weapons that would literally _rewind time_ to ensure a round hit as a _light weapon_, there is an issue. Unfortunately, the Eldar proceeded to _squick_ a fourth Chaos God into existence, and in the process the DAoT humanity fell into the Age of Strife(1). And Then The Master Of Mankind Happened. Short version-the Master of Mankind thought he was playing three-D chess against opponents who were playing three-D poker with marked cards and _cheating_, destroying his plans utterly. Which resulted in the lovely universe that we have today, where there are parts of the Imperium where _time itself_ is malfunctioning. Where if you build an AI powerful enough to recover anything along the lines of Dark Age of Technology capability, something from the Warp will get inside it sooner than later. You have to be _ignorant_, because it is entirely possible to be strong…but very fragile to the seduction of the Ruinous Powers, no matter how well they think they are protected(2). Your only defense on average is _not knowing anything_-and keeping others from knowing anything. It’s great for a wargame, because there’s always a reason for _ **everyone** _ to trying to sincerely kill each other. Progress? Improvements? Not going to happen, or it’s going to require divine-level intervention of some kind. And there are almost _no_ friendly deitites in the 40K universe. (1-Theory of mine that I’ve had is that the Men of Gold and Men of Silver and Men of Iron set things up to fail the _way they did_ because they suspected what was going to happen, and gave humanity a deliberately crippled tool-set that _could_ save them, but it wouldn’t _destroy_ them. Other things might end them, but not their technology.) (2-Every person can be seduced, if you know _how_ to get to them. The world is full of marks to a well-trained con artists, and sometimes it is the [kindest of things](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1CpEISaVF0) that will damn you…) ---
**Author:** ![avatar](https://yyz2.discourse-cdn.com/free1/user_avatar/eldraeverse.discourse.group/avatar/32/2_2.png) [@avatar](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/u/avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2025, 8:21pm UTC](https://eldraeverse.discourse.group/t/in-the-grim-darkness-of-the-contact-form/3156/6 "2025-03-23T20:21:37Z")
That really lets the dwellers therein off too easily. The so-called Ruinous Powers are born from reflections of thoughts and emotions imprinted on the Warp. _All_ thoughts and emotions. In theory, they have positive aspects. Tzeentch, god of hope and ambition, for example. Khorne, lord of honor and justice. Nurgle, who loves you just as you are. Etc. In _theory_. So, why, in practice, are they so fuckin’ Ruinous? Because within ~~delta~~ epsilon of every mortal organization in the entire 40K galaxy is set up to promote malevolent, backstabbing bags of dicks, and have been for the entire history of ever. The Ruinous Powers are only Ruinous because their emofood comes out of a giant awful-people cesspool. There may be a positive feedback loop involved, but it’s one that could still be choked off tomorrow by the Great Intra-Galactic Anti-Douchebaggery Accord. Instead, everyone thinks they can solve their problems by becoming _even worse_. (And this is why the only people close to worth a damn therein are the bioweapon, the devouring swarm, the omnicidal maniacs, and the race with minimal warp presence.)